Automatic Survey License for Licensed Engineers in Civil Engineering

With the advent of the Industrial Revolution, those clever enough to pump water from mines, deliver things on rails using steam and plan bridges across gaps earned the admiration of the public and many considered it an honorific rather than a description to add "engineer" to their titles. Shortly thereafter, many folks assumed one should call an engineer to request a survey and from there problems began.

What the public didn't (and still doesn't) know is that the essense of engineering is the correct application of the accepted principles to solve a problem. The answers are not unique and so lend themselves to codes and lists of how-to minimum standards.

The essence of surveying (especially boundary surveying) is, on the other hand, about detective work and logical analysis. The answer is something discovered rather than something applied.

Frank Willis is right when he wrote:
Probably the biggest conceptual difference between the two professions is: 

The philosophies of each of these professions have reverse flow, and therein lies the problem.

The misconception by the public and its officials lead to licencing engineers and assuming some of them could inherently perform surveys. As businessmen, the engineers didn't object to this and in places where real estate was being developed faster than it was being resold no problems were noticed. However, after a couple of generations toward the end of the 20th century it was noticed that many if not most of the "problem" surveys were by engineers with permission to survey and the requirements to become licensed as a surveyor were raised. The grandfathered would go away by attrition and all would improve - right? Depends on whose bottom line was affected!

As tomarneson pointed out:
If you go back far enough, many states allowed PEs to do surveys without a LS license.

As senior officers in companies offering both engineering and surveying services (and who received a gratis LS) neared retirement age, such companies began to seek a licensed surveyor to replace the retirees who had been paid as engineers and so (on the books) seemed to be providing a surveying license at no cost. The new licensed surveyors were arrogant enough to expect to be paid real money to be the responsible professional and the coompanies panicked.Many approached the reglatory boards or legislators to persuade them to reduce the requirements for licensure. I know of attempts to count remedial English or Algbra as "rurvey related requirements"; anything to get one of the "muddy boots" guys who use the rear door a stamp so we can "continue as usual."

Except for monetary reasons, even the notion of joint boards to regulate the two types of profession are incorrect.

Regards,

Very good, Mr. Cavell!

I am not aware of any association that Civil Engineering has with Surveying.  In the past some Engineers (Including my Grand Father) chose to become Land Surveyors and were very good at both of their professions.  However, in today's time surveying is not even taught in most universities, and surely not the historic aspect of surveying.

The problems we encounter now are that our profession is becoming a computer / mathematical profession without regard to following the footsteps of our fore fathers and studying the history. 

I had rather see attorneys becoming surveyors, or surveyors becoming attorneys, as these professions are more closely associated.  

There are thousands of PEs that belong to the Geomatics Division of the American Society of Civil Engineers. Most are licensed as both PEs and LSs.
And, our numbers are increasing annually.

daw NY PE (16 hour exam), NY LS (16 hour exam), and CO RLS (four hour exam) F.ASCE

Frankly, this Engineer wouldn't be caught dead as a member of ASCE. The term "Geomatics" is pretty well descriptive of the silly mindset towards the profession of Surveying in ASCE.

Most CE programs, at one time, were real powers in Surveying offering a breadth of coursework in teh field that set a very good standard. Those same schools required a summer long Surveying "Camp" in which you saw most of what went on in both Engineering Surveys and Land Surveying. That started ending in the early 60s, and VA Tech is the only school I've seen in the last 20 years that even had a camp in its catalog.

Tony has the right idea about Engineering vs Surveying. I disagree slightly with his statement "the essense of engineering is the correct application of the accepted principles to solve a problem." If you place "and judgment" after  "principles, I would agree. While Engineering is primarily technical when it comes to design, it also requires a great deal of judgment to be successful in Engineering. To boil it down to a simple description of teh differences I use the statement,

"Engineering is a technical field with some legal aspects. Land Surveying is a Legal Field with some technical aspects."

I would not describe this as  a reverse flow as Tony does, but it does require a different mindset for activities in each field. I have found I have to turn the Engineer off to function as a Surveyor, and the reverse is true with Engineering. There are times I have a problem doing that, and that is a problem I have seen in any dual registered person who does significant work in both fields. I spoke with one dual registered Engineer in Ohio that vehemently denied that being true in him, but he was one of the worst offenders I have ever seen. I am not saying this is evil, just that the problem exists and is difficult to get around.

I don't know if ABET (may that name be accursed) still allows CE programs to go without a Surveying in their curriculm or not. But the average of thsoe that have the requirement is one course in Plane Surveying, with, perhaps, a course in Route Surveying or "Advanced Surveying" that includes Route Curves and a smattering of other things. Enough that you might be able to handle some of the aspects of roadway design, but not much else, if that. Too many kids coming out of CE programs are in over their heads. The BSCET programs tend to be far better in this regard, and the CEs hate those grads precisely because they often know far more and are closer to being ready to go to work than they are.

For a CE, the math requirement is there because of the possibility of Grad school. Since leaving Engienering School I have as yet to use Calculus in any form. You will need it if you go into Structural Engineering or Engineering Mechanics on the graduate level, but that's about it. The most useful math course I took was Trigonometry, and I use it often. It was nice to have Linear Algebra and Statistical Analysis since I know the foundations of Least squares and what it can and can't do for you (and it ain't much, unless your goal is to baffle the rest with BS when you can't dazzle with your brilliance). 20 hours of  Calculus, 3 hours of Complex variables, 5 hours of Diff E and 3 hours of Partial Diff E? Meh. Who cares, except the ABET morons that have little attachment to their own profession. For the undergrads, the BET model is actually far more effective and realistic. About the only people that disagree with that are the folks that dominate ASCE and NSPE, both of which are extremely self-absorbed and more about padding their member's nest than about the profession.

Having said all of that, giving a Surveying License to someone simply because theya re PE, or granting exemptions for the same reason is foolhardy. Ohio has been reduced to considering that because the short sightedness of PLSO now requires a degree, or significant college work in addition to a CE degree and teh ranks of teh dual licensed are thinning dramatically (both licenses are required to be a County Engineer because the office of County Surveyor was abolished many years ago and the duty assigned to teh County Engineer). You used to be able to self-educate, and that has been ended, and the dual licensee ranks are thinning, and the surveying profession is looking down the barrel of a gun, as it is in a lot of the degree requiring states.

Total non starter.

Many civil engineering programs today don't even include surveying coursework anymore.

When Montana first started requiring a separate license for engineers and surveyors, they grandfathered in engineers by giving them an ES license. While not sure of the exact date of this (in the 60's or earlier), to this day I cringe when I see that I am working with an old survey done by an ES (not all but most). It seems like they are invaribly  going to turn out to be a problem. They probably were done by someone working for the engineer and likely had little if any oversight by the licensee even if he did have the knowledge, which in my experience was unlikely.

I like the "reverse flow" comment because it encapsulates the fact that Engineers and Surveyors approach problems differently. 
Engineers are steeped in the religion of Euclid and Pythagoras, that everything can be described and solved by numbers. 
Whereas, the ideal solution to a boundary problem is to find the monument, in which case the numbers go away.

I blame Jefferson for inventing the things (engineers). When I first got Licensed my father-in-law got me lined up with a cushy state job (AL) which required a LS. I just couldn't take it because the job title was engineer's assistant. That evidently is what they call their state employeed surveyors.