Anybody with any comments concerning individuals other than registered land surveyors marking or attempting to delineate property boundaries on behalf of others? This is all too common practice among real estate brokers/agents and Foresters in my area (SE, US), and seems to violate state laws concerning such practice.
That's a real thorn in my side....Realtors telling buyers where the properly line is....and then I come out a year later and survey it for some reason and the owners get all bent out of shape when I show them there boundary. But the realtor said it was over there.....this isn't right, blah blah blah.....I wish there was some law or something to keep Realtors selling homes...and not surveying them......rant off....
What about documenting the unlicensed practice (from your perspective) and forward a letter citing the relevant statutes to the appropriate person on the local State Board and ask them to investigate. Most jurisdictions do have legislation that includes definitions of land surveying and the delineation of property boundaries.
State boards exist to a large extent for protection of the public. I will hazard a guess that State Boards have the statutory authority to file cease and desist orders if there are violations.
Just because the realtors and others believe that they have the knowledge to delineate a property boundary doesn't mean that they can.
Educating them with respect to legislation and liability - among other topics - is another option. Why not turn a potentially adversarial view into an opportunity to educate these groups?
The problem with referring the matter to State boards, at least in my state (and, I suspect, many others), is that the board only has legal authority to police licensees and has no power to act against unlicensed practice. The State attorney general does, but it's hardly a priority. Our State society has or had an unlicensed practice committee but I'm not sure how much they got done.
I suspect that tactfully informing the offender might be the best approach. I remember doing this at least once and finding the Realtor surprisingly receptive -- he just didn't know. Many Realtors think our license merely enables us to operate an instrument on a tripod and if they're not doing that they think they're all set.
You'd be better off documenting all these examples and then using that information to give a seminar to the local realtor organization. You could call it "The Dangers of Showing Buyers What You Think Are Property Lines."
Tommy's right and I believe at least one real estate agent was disciplined by his licensing board here in Maine some years ago for misleading a buyer about boundaries. There's been much less of this type of thing around here in recent years and that may be why.
Thanks for the input/insight. Let's keep this going, I'd like to know what more people think. Nearly every problem I have with clients or adjoiners over boundary locations stems from real estate agents or others giving misleading info about corner/line location ei; flagging a ut. pole or a fence corner and then telling the buyer that it is the corner. These same groups rarely if ever recommend a survey to their clients. I may be one of the few who believe that all we really have that is exclusive to our profession is the legal ability to survey boundaries. As such I feel very protective about it...State and National societies should sponsor public service announcements on radio and other media to increase public awareness about our role and the value of what we do (architects, and engineers have had similar PNA ads for years).
I believe that most realtors are decent people and just don't know what they are doing when they point to a fence corner or a power pole and claim it's the corner.
After thinking further about this, I'm completely in agreement with Tommy. There may be considerable interest from the local realty board and similar groups in a workshop of the type Tommy suggests, perhaps with a friendlier proactive title - Protecting your Clients and Protecting Yourself. It would promote our profession and raise awareness of the issues with the real potential of gaining some clients.
I never saw many realtors out in the pucker brush marking lines; usually they don’t even want to get their shoes dirty by walking the lines. Did have had one put her sign on the wrong property and then deny it after the sale and the lot was cleared. Fortunately the client had a lawyer for a brother and pictures of the realtor proudly standing by her sign in front of the property.
Too bad surveyors have not learned the realtor’s practice of charging by the value of the property being surveyed. In this area, homes go for 175-300K, realtors charge 6-7%, thus the realtor pockets 10-20K and is never seen again yet surveyors are happy if they can get $1500 for their work.
Realtors are usually naive people, who base their opinion of the property lines on what info the seller has provided......but from my experience, they are willing to stretch the limits to assist in the sale. A sale means a commission, i.e. money in their pocket. I've never really seen much value or worth in a realtor....and when they "play surveyor"...they cross the line from being an annoying nuisance to an incompetent threat to a surveyor's livelihood.
I guess because foresters took a one or two survey courses in school makes them experts on property boundaries. A true
story: I was asked to quote on marking a 6300 foot boundary line for a hunting club in SC. After a few days, I called to inquire
if they had made a decision. He informed me that one of members was a forester and could do it for far less using a hand held GPS!
1.2 miles gentlemen! Knock yourself out. I did tell before I hung up that only licensed surveyors could legally mark boundary lines. This
did not seem to register in his brain. 3 months later I received another call from the same hunting guy. He said most of the adjoiners were
upset about the markings, and some of the line was not marked at all. "A real mess" in his words. He was begging me to do the work after
all. I did, at double the price!> As for realtors marking boundaries, this is practicing land surveying without a license, no question. I guess
because they are licensed to sell, somehow they are experts at locating it! Most realtors that I know are lucky to find the driveway and front
door. The bigger problem here is States not requiring a new survey on real estate purchase! Title companies are perfectly content using the
survey affidvits, which in itself is practicing land surveying without a license. If a realtor knew that the property was going to be surveyed and
marked by a PLS, why would they even need to worry about it!!!!!!
I believe the problem is that the state or in my case provincial survey associations do not protect there own interest's, If you want to stop non licensed surveyors etc. from marking boundaries then it is up to these associations to prosecute the the individuals that are committing the violations. I am tired of hearing this same complaint. Only a licensed land surveyor has the right to mark boundary lines, anyone else who does it is braking the law. If we do not protect our rights no one else is going to do it for us.
Pat
This seems to happen all too often in this area when a so-called "forester" (guy looking to make big bucks from some poor family who has no other option for survival but to sell their timber or property) goes out to a large tract of land & proceeds to "walk the boundaries". Then makes the huge mistake of telling me that he found & flagged all the corners, marked and painted the trees, and that he even found a few mistakes in the deed. This "forester" even admitted to how many cases of flagging he goes through, how many cans of paint he uses, and what kind of brush axe he uses to blaze the trees. He uses a compass and a string line to measure these tracts. This guy has no degree, no license, and obviously no conscience. About a month ago, he hired me to do a survey on a tract of land left over after several parcels were deeded off over the years. He needed a boundary survey, corners set, and a deed description of the parcel. The day I went out in the field, he showed me the "corners" he found to be correct by using magnetic bearings. Three out of six corners were green metal T-posts that he admitted to showing his grandson (who was purchasing the property) where to set; two were original corners called for in adjoining deeds; and one was a galvanized pipe. It was at this location where I could not bite my lip any longer...I asked him if he set this corner or found it. He said he showed his grandson where to set it, and I knew at this point my mouth could not keep shut any longer and my blood pressure was rising, so I proceeded to tell him that I have to have a license to make determinations where to set a boundary corner, that his marking and painting lines adds confusion to a "licensed" surveyor trying to do a job which takes a great deal of education, experience, and money....which by the way takes away from our work which is practically non-existent at this point!! He said he could fire me and get someone else to do the job...but how could anyone in my position not defend the profession they love that gets no respect and defend themselves from taking crap from people just like him! Needless to say, I did not get fired, I did find existing irons within 3-6 feet of the metal t-posts, I pulled the pipe out his grandson set, and set new irons at two locations. I presented the finished product which was the certified deed description, a sketch of the boundary, and a 24X36 plot of the worksheet showing the adjoining parcels and the survey parcel. I also explained that he could not use the deed bearings from adjoining deeds unless they were on the same basis of bearings or rotated as such to make everything relevant. He thought the description could be shorter and told me how he would've wrote it, blah, blah blah. Maybe, just maybe (and I say this lightly) he has a new respect for what we do and what it takes to accomplish the results....but he brags about making $30,000 on 1 timber job....and I think to myself, there is no hope for people like him. By the way, he did pay for the work! Thanks for the soapbox, and please stand-up for yourselves, we are all in this together!! Joanne
I concur with Patrick. This tends to happen mostly where Licensing Boards are too passive. They need to (at least) give you the mechanism to file official complaints naming the offender. The one caveat, to actually charge them with a misdemeanor there must be money or compensation for the offering of these unauthorized services. It is also not true that an unlicensed has no liability for errors if they have an adverse affect on the client. Adjoiners can sue an unlicensed practitioner for damages. And I would speculate unlicensed is typically uninsured.
Again, it goes back to educating the client. This sort of thing only continues because we haven't done a good job of promoting the profession. That, along with our "image" needs to change.
MLB
This is a real shame. It's sure is hard to explain to the land owners where the boundaries are when someone has already convinced them with a wrong fact. This is why it's very important to have land surveyed by a licensed surveyor before purchasing, sadly not a lot of people believe this.
I agree their should be a mechanism in place (and a board with that actually does something about it) to stop this sort of practice. Just curious, but how do folks feel about "rent a crews" that do this sort of thing? You know the unlicensed fellow that has been running a crew for years and wants to make some side money. In my opinion it is no different.
Martin, amen brother! I have hoping for years Surveyors would get a better and or more standardized pricing structure. Honestly, most people get into a profession to be respected, make decent money, and retire with dignity. Unfortunately, most Surveyors just seem to think it is honorable to work hard for nothing and it shows. Who in their right mind would send their child through 4 years of college for what that? The current economy aside, until we start charging fees that will support a professional lifestyle for us and our employees this conversation about surveying being a profession or not will never end.
When the fellow running the crew "for years" gets a degree and passes the state exam, then he's qualified to do my job. If he hasn't passed the exam, and hasn't got a license, then he's surveying without a license just like the forester, the real estate agent, and the guy who used to be licensed three states over, but got out of surveying because there wasn't any money in it back in 2008.
I've got a 4 year degree in surveying, but that does not make me qualified to determine boundaries in any state in which I do not hold a current valid license, whether or not I have previously held a license there. I also do not claim to be able to make any measurements which could be deemed as being in the realm of unlicensed activity in states or US territories I am not currently licensed in.
Passing a licensing exam isn't terribly difficult, with the right surveying background. I consider the time and expense of the exam and license a cost of doing business in any state that I wish to market my abilities in. If someone wants to "make some side money", they're free to do anything unlicensed in my state, like mowing grass, pressure cleaning patios or painting houses.
In my opinion Its hard to find the genuine realtors. I think i must agree with the some of the above comments. Thanks for sharing your valuable information.
Oh jeez.. I've heard a lot about this. The bad thing is that a lot of land surveyors are already losing job, and some people are trying to do what surveyors are supposed to do. This is a deadly combination employment-wise.
maxwellls:
Oh jeez.. I've heard a lot about this. The bad thing is that a lot of land surveyors are already losing job, and some people are trying to do what surveyors are supposed to do. This is a deadly combination employment-wise.
Hi Max.., Of course i agree with you, unfortunately there are no surveying jobs. Thanks for your response!
As far as i know, most of the people are having bad expeirnece with real estate agents. I mean all the real estate agents are not bad, just some of them and the remaining agents really proves to helpful in buying or selling any property.There are few simple things to identify a bad real estate agents. Lack of comunication, leadership, follow up and unusual resources, too much pressure can easily idetify a bad estate agent.
Were would one find a "Good" real estate agent or broker? I have been surveying since 1969 and I have never met one. "Lack of comunication, leadership, follow up and unusual resources..." describes all the real estate people I have ever dealt with. And that includes attorneys.
